The "Using Custom Soundbanks Online" Problem, and a Potential Solution

[Squirminator2k]

One feature people constantly seem to demand is the ability to use custom soundbanks online and have the other players hear them. Pac-Man recently made a reasonable attempt at making an online solution work and failed that seems like a step in the right direction even if it was unsuccessful.

There are two key problems preventing this feature from being implemented. The first is technical limitations. We're looking at sharing multiple WAV files (which are of variable size, especially in the case of custom soundbanks which are often poorly compressed) either on-the-fly as and when needed, or all in one chunk prior to the start of a game, to as many as five other players. Not technically impossible, but something of a nightmare.

The second problem is, oddly, a legal one. If, for instance, I'm playing using a GLaDOS soundbank and I play online with someone who doesn't have it and Worms Armageddon then transfers the soundbank to the other player, are Team17 them responsible for distributing copyright material that they have no ownership of? Where does this put them, legally? It's a murky area to be sure, and one Team17 may not be willing to set foot into.

I'd like to submit, though, that Team17 already solved this problem in Worms Reloaded, to a degree. Allow me to explain.

In Worms 2, Worms Armageddon and Worms World Party, if Player A uses a soundbank that Player B does not have, Player B hears whichever is the default soundbank for their (Player B's) territory (i.e. a copy of the game installed on a US computer will use the American soundbank, one based on the UK will use English, and so on).

However, Worms Reloaded's solution to this problem is a little more novel - it will instead randomly select a soundbank for the other player to use for the duration of that particular round.

This means the game doesn't lose any of its "character" - Player A's team still has a distinct "flavour" for Player B, as opposed to Player B hearing the bog-standard soundbank and being filled with the disappointment of knowing there's a soundbank out there they don't own and can't hear*.

As a possible alternative, players opting for a custom soundbank could select a secondary soundbank for online games. The secondary list would be locked to default soundbanks, meaning you can't have "GLaDOS" as your primary and "TF2 Heavy" as your secondary. This allows Player A to ensure the flavour of their team is preserved to a degree, even if Players B-E do not have the custom soundbank.

Or whatever.

Thoughts?
_______________________
* I'm exaggerating, obviously.

[StepS]

Another one: wav files could have a malware (either renamed extension, container package since it's a WAV or the old known codec trick), triggering AV or something

[Muzer]

Originally Posted by Squirminator2k

The second problem is, oddly, a legal one. If, for instance, I'm playing using a GLaDOS soundbank and I play online with someone who doesn't have it and Worms Armageddon then transfers the soundbank to the other player, are Team17 them responsible for distributing copyright material that they have no ownership of? Where does this put them, legally? It's a murky area to be sure, and one Team17 may not be willing to set foot into.

Surely the same thing applies to maps and fanfares and, to a lesser extent, flags and graves?

[Obn3g0n]

No offense but this isn't much of a solution. Here's mine:

-OGG compression (or do WAVs compress well in .zip files?). A soundbank compresses to about the size of a medium-large size map.

-WMDB/WSBDB server or a similar service to avoid slow transfers between players

-Everyone can listen to custom soundbanks if they opt to receive them (in Advanced settings - a copyright message will flash saying Team17 is not responsible and that users must only share material they own the rights to)

-Only donors can upload their own custom soundbanks. Optional - this would be up to the person running the website.

-A wormkit module downloads the soundbanks for you, converts ogg->wav and stores them on your hard drive for future use.

[that dude]

i don't know anything about ftps and stuff and i don't download soundbanks. I just use sound bank editor and put sound file extractions from anywhere (movies, youtube videos, other games) but other players can't hear them of course, which sucks.

[Squirminator2k]

Originally Posted by Obn3g0n

-A wormkit module downloads the soundbanks for you, converts ogg->wav and stores them on your hard drive for future use.

Oh boy! An unofficial add-on that someone has to make, then someone else (everyone else, presumably) has to download and use, providing an uneven not-quite-a-solution to this problem! Thanks guys. Thread closed, everybody!

[SupSuper]

Originally Posted by Squirminator2k

The second problem is, oddly, a legal one. If, for instance, I'm playing using a GLaDOS soundbank and I play online with someone who doesn't have it and Worms Armageddon then transfers the soundbank to the other player, are Team17 them responsible for distributing copyright material that they have no ownership of? Where does this put them, legally? It's a murky area to be sure, and one Team17 may not be willing to set foot into.

Pretty sure companies automatically waive all responsibilities regarding user-made content, probably reinforced with the whole "Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB" and EULA stuff, otherwise mod support would be next to impossible.

[Squirminator2k]

That's true, but actively taking it upon themselves to transfer user-made files in that manner is legally iffy. Most mods have to be downloaded from third-party site. Of course that's now changed with services like Steam Workshop, but nevertheless.

[Plasma]

There's also the issue of playing awful audio. Games have had voice chat since Forever, but in most of those cases, the audio is simplified down, so high pitches aren't high. It doesn't have the same problem.

In other words, to solve both the filesize problem and this one, I'd say it'd require actually converting WAV files to a new, low-bandwidth format. And that's a lot of effort for a small feature.

Originally Posted by Squirminator2k

The second problem is, oddly, a legal one. If, for instance, I'm playing using a GLaDOS soundbank and I play online with someone who doesn't have it and Worms Armageddon then transfers the soundbank to the other player, are Team17 them responsible for distributing copyright material that they have no ownership of? Where does this put them, legally? It's a murky area to be sure, and one Team17 may not be willing to set foot into.

What? What?! Did you just say - on a forum full of Team17-distributed copyright infringements - that Team17 might get in trouble if they extend their File Transfer program to also transfer audio? As in, the absolute most commonly transferred digital format in video games?


I really have to ask: how on Earth did you ever come to that conclusion?

[StepS]

legal problem? not a problem at all. in fact there's a pretty established rule about "trying" content, like, for example, online mp3 preview. it is stored on the PC indeed, but gets vanished as soon as you leave the preview, and it's perfectly fine (if i'm not mistaken, the normal limit is 24 hours for the file to stay on your HDD). if you're worried of a legal problem, a simple solution would be to delete the soundbank after the game has ended. being even more paranoid you could obstruct/encrypt those files while they're there...
the only problem is that this eliminates a "cache" feature.

[Muzer]

Originally Posted by StepS

legal problem? not a problem at all. in fact there's a pretty established rule about "trying" content, like, for example, online mp3 preview. it is stored on the PC indeed, but gets vanished as soon as you leave the preview, and it's perfectly fine (if i'm not mistaken, the normal limit is 24 hours for the file to stay on your HDD). if you're worried of a legal problem, a simple solution would be to delete the soundbank after the game has ended. being even more paranoid you could obstruct/encrypt those files while they're there...
the only problem is that this eliminates a "cache" feature.

ahahahaha, no. That's not a thing. That's just a think used by ROM websites to try to justify their legality. It has no basis in law at all

MP3 preview things would play a small sample of the song, I would expect, which would qualify under fair use. If they don't, I'd expect they'd have to have permission to do this.

[Squirminator2k]

Originally Posted by Plasma

What? What?! Did you just say - on a forum full of Team17-distributed copyright infringements - that Team17 might get in trouble if they extend their File Transfer program to also transfer audio? As in, the absolute most commonly transferred digital format in video games?


I really have to ask: how on Earth did you ever come to that conclusion?

We're not talking about VoIP, here. We're talking about .wav files which, in many cases, are "curated" from TV shows, films and movies, without permission. Case in point: The initial release of Worms Reinforcements actually came with several such soundbanks, but they were removed from later releases and from Worms United for obvious reasons.

That is the potential legal issue - the unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material. Which, you may or may not know, is something of a hot button issue in the entertainment industry at the moment.

[Obn3g0n]

Doing the feature through Wormkit would avoid any potential legal problems.

But I don't see why it creates legal problems if the game caches soundbanks. It already caches maps, via replays. As long as the game isn't distributed with copyrighted soundbanks on the actual cd (or through an official patch), is there a problem? This is beside the point.

I suggested Wormkit because that way anyone can make the patch. CS and DC already have enough on their plates.

Now that Wormkit is integrated, it's one step closer to the masses. The problem is getting more people to install the modules. Putting alerts in the official patch could help solve this problem. They could say something like:

"Several experimental 3rd party updates are available that provide new features: many new custom weapons and utilities, new gameplay modes, sharing custom soundbanks online, etc. Click here to download them for free!".

However that could create a very confusing experience for a new player who installed everything off the bat, not knowing anything about ProjectX, etc. Just simply playing online is confusing enough for new people. Maybe the popup could only display after some criteria has been met, such as 50 online games played.

I recently installed all of the soundbanks from wsbdb, and I can say it adds a great deal to the online experience when I can hear someone's soundbank and they can hear mine. Before doing that I didn't care very much about custom soundbanks. That's my motivation for making these suggestions, and for saying that S2K's initial suggestion isn't a good enough solution.


Legal/technical limitations are no big deal; ogg compression achieves a good filesize/quality ratio. Making the actual patch would be the hard part. Could some of it be made with existing open-source software?

[Muzer]

Originally Posted by Obn3g0n

Doing the feature through Wormkit would avoid any potential legal problems.

But I don't see why it creates legal problems if the game caches soundbanks. It already caches maps, via replays. As long as the game isn't distributed with copyrighted soundbanks on the actual cd (or through an official patch), is there a problem? This is beside the point.

I suggested Wormkit because that way anyone can make the patch. CS and DC already have enough on their plates.

Now that Wormkit is integrated, it's one step closer to the masses. The problem is getting more people to install the modules. Putting alerts in the official patch could help solve this problem. They could say something like:

"Several experimental 3rd party updates are available that provide new features: many new custom weapons and utilities, new gameplay modes, sharing custom soundbanks online, etc. Click here to download them for free!".

However that could create a very confusing experience for a new player who installed everything off the bat, not knowing anything about ProjectX, etc. Just simply playing online is confusing enough for new people. Maybe the popup could only display after some criteria has been met, such as 50 online games played.

I recently installed all of the soundbanks from wsbdb, and I can say it adds a great deal to the online experience when I can hear someone's soundbank and they can hear mine. Before doing that I didn't care very much about custom soundbanks. That's my motivation for making these suggestions, and for saying that S2K's initial suggestion isn't a good enough solution.


Legal/technical limitations are no big deal; ogg compression achieves a good filesize/quality ratio. Making the actual patch would be the hard part. Could some of it be made with existing open-source software?

The problem is, mentioning them in the official update would (in some people's minds at least) imply if not outright support, at least approval. Some modules are buggy or worse, cause desyncs. Some do morally-dodgy things that, to some people, have the potential to be abused. Some of them use traffic on a server that might not appreciate the whole of the WA install base using it. And most of them don't work once a new update arrives.

For these and other reasons that I haven't mentioned, having a large portion of the WormNET population using many WormKit modules is far from an ideal solution. Things being implemented in the game itself is best where appropriate. That's not to say that WormKit modules are bad - just that they shouldn't be mentioned in the official update.

[StepS]

Originally Posted by Muzer

ahahahaha, no. That's not a thing. That's just a think used by ROM websites to try to justify their legality. It has no basis in law at all

MP3 preview things would play a small sample of the song, I would expect, which would qualify under fair use. If they don't, I'd expect they'd have to have permission to do this.

oh okey

[Obn3g0n]

Originally Posted by Muzer

The problem is, mentioning them in the official update would (in some people's minds at least) imply if not outright support, at least approval. Some modules are buggy or worse, cause desyncs. Some do morally-dodgy things that, to some people, have the potential to be abused. Some of them use traffic on a server that might not appreciate the whole of the WA install base using it. And most of them don't work once a new update arrives.

For these and other reasons that I haven't mentioned, having a large portion of the WormNET population using many WormKit modules is far from an ideal solution. Things being implemented in the game itself is best where appropriate. That's not to say that WormKit modules are bad - just that they shouldn't be mentioned in the official update.

All these issues can be fixed with words. The website reached by the download link you click in the alert could explain all the concerns you raised. For example it could say that ProjectX is still in beta, requires a fast computer, and affects game stability for some people. It could say that WormNAT2 should only be used as a last resort and that wkCyrusKick should be used responsibly. It should definitely explain how to disable any module. And of course it should say prominently that Team17 does not approve or endorse any 3rd party modifications or provide support/guarantees for any of them.

Of course it's true that features integrated into the actual official game are better, but without 3rd party mods we wouldn't have Rubberworm and ProjectX. In my opinion that is a winning argument in favor of supporting game mods.

[Muzer]

As far as the OP goes, if something like this is ever implemented (I think it's a good idea even if there is an option to download soundbanks, for people who opt out of doing so), rather than having a random soundbank, how about hashing the custom sound bank's name? This way, the same custom sound bank will always be assigned the same "random" built-in sound bank.

Choosing an alternative sound bank would also work.

(Hashing, if you're not aware, basically involves taking an arbitrary set of data and generating an arbitrary number out of it, the closer to randomly distributed the better the hash function - but the same data will always produce the same arbitrary number.)

[Plasma]

Originally Posted by StepS

legal problem?

Originally Posted by Obn3g0n

legal problems.

Originally Posted by Squirminator2k

legal issue

...

Let me try keeping it simple this time:

A company cannot be sued for distributing copyrighted material if it is not actually distributing copyrighted material! And just to make sure this is is absolutely crystal clear, we are talking about adding a feature that would potentially allow people who aren't Team17 distribute copyrighted material to other people who aren't Team17.


Now can we continue this debate without this incredibly nonsensical legal issue in it?

[Muzer]

TPB isn't distributing copyrighted material.

[bonz]

I don't see much of a problem either.

Such a speechbank distribution feature would be limited to OGG files.
They could also have a limited duration and/or maximum bitrate.

That way, it's highly unlikely that people suddenly would abuse WA as music distribution service.

Besides, I think that developers are more concerned about bad language and derogatory custom content stream to other players, especially since the Worms franchise is aimed at a younger audience and rated like that.

But yes, while doing it via WormKit modules would be feasible, only an official feature from a (mandatory) patch will make a widespread use possible.

[Muzer]

Originally Posted by bonz

I don't see much of a problem either.

Such a speechbank distribution feature would be limited to OGG files.
They could also have a limited duration and/or maximum bitrate.

That way, it's highly unlikely that people suddenly would abuse WA as music distribution service.

Besides, I think that developers are more concerned about bad language and derogatory custom content stream to other players, especially since the Worms franchise is aimed at a younger audience and rated like that.

But yes, while doing it via WormKit modules would be feasible, only an official feature from a (mandatory) patch will make a widespread use possible.

Indeed. I would expect a few speech samples from TV programmes would probably qualify as fair use, for their duration at least. This factor combined with many others (the fact that T17 aren't distributing it, only providing the mechanism by which users can do so) would mean I highly doubt they'd get any legal isues over it.

[1batata]

Here's the problem. It conflicts directly with team17 directly. If people start ripping newer worms games witch is pretty easy to do, it's pretty obvious why they don't want that happening. That's probably why they scraped speech customization. Butt heeyyy it's just speculation.