Worms Revolution - Classes

[BethanyTeam17]

Originally Posted by Deluvas

@Scout: I was hoping he can double jump forward !

PS: I like the renders of the classes.

Thanks They've been created using the in-game models.

The Scout is fantastic at jumping

[hoppi]

Originally Posted by 'HHC

In other words, does the scout have weak attack power because he has 'noob'-weapons or because when he uses a weapon the damage isn't as substantial?

That'd be cool actually if all the classes had almost similar weapon arsenal, but the weakers types like scouts had just weaker versions of the weapons. Minibazooka instead of bazooka etc. (even better if there was weapon power customization and you could see the power in weapon panel, like "bazooka **, bazooka ***...)

Additionally could be interesting to have the option to choose different weapons for every class/whole team before the match. A very bad quickly thought example: "Should the scout take +2 jetpacks for this map instead of +2 ropes or should he drop those and take Invisibility?"

This is just me day dreaming, don't mind me.

I'm dissapointed about only 4 worms per team, you should be able to set more at least in custom schemes. Well, if the game is good otherwise it's not that big a drawback.

[Deluvas]

I'm dissapointed about only 4 worms per team, you should be able to set more at least in custom schemes. Well, if the game is good otherwise it's not that big a drawback.

I don't understand what the drawback would be if we had a maximum of 6 worms per team instead of four. Would this be a technical problem? Armageddon had a maximum of 8 if I'm not mistaken and it was FUN playing with all 8, watching them fly like rockets around the map and into the water!

[BethanyTeam17]

Originally Posted by Deluvas

I don't understand what the drawback would be if we had a maximum of 6 worms per team instead of four. Would this be a technical problem? Armageddon had a maximum of 8 if I'm not mistaken and it was FUN playing with all 8, watching them fly like rockets around the map and into the water!

Hey, a maximum of sixteen worms is really a technical restriction, as unlike the old games now our worms aren’t sprites they’re poly meshes that can also be customised (so each can wear hats, glasses, and do something new and cool etc.) As well as the worms to manage we also have all of the things that the old games had (persistent objects such as Oil Drums and Landmines) but with the inclusion of Sentry Guns, Electromagnets and a new utility I'll talk about later on.... We also have to manage a large total number of crates (all of which now have a proper physics simulation, unlike the old game) and also fire and clouds of poison.

[BethanyTeam17]

Originally Posted by 'HHC

I'm still somewhat confused whether all 4 worms will have access to the same weapon panel or whether they are limited to their 'range'?

In other words, does the scout have weak attack power because he has 'noob'-weapons or because when he uses a weapon the damage isn't as substantial?

All of the classes have access to the same weapons panel in-game.

Though playing as a certain classes carries different advantages/disadvantages and some are more suited to certain weapons/utilities than their fellow worms. For example, the Heavy doesn't move as easily on the Jet Pack due to his weight, whereas the Scout can navigate on it far quicker as he's a lot lighter.

In the same respect, a Heavy hitting a Scout with a Baseball Bat will send the Scout a lot further and do more damage then it would if the Scout hit the Heavy in the same manner

[Akuryou13]

Originally Posted by bethamari

In the same respect, a Heavy hitting a Scout with a Baseball Bat will send the Scout a lot further and do more damage then it would if the Scout hit the Heavy in the same manner

OK. that's an awesome little touch of detail!

[Deluvas]

Hey, a maximum of sixteen worms is really a technical restriction, as unlike the old games now our worms aren’t sprites they’re poly meshes that can also be customised (so each can wear hats, glasses, play with toys, etc.) As well as the worms to manage we also have all of the things that the old games had (persistent objects such as Oil Drums and Landmines) but with the inclusion of Sentry Guns, Electromagnets and a new utility I'll talk about later on.... We also have to manage a large total number of crates (all of which now have a proper physics simulation, unlike the old game) and also fire and clouds of poison.

I appreciate your answer, however I'm a bit shocked. I will start from the fact that, today, most people that play games, have decent machines. There is, however, a percentage with low-end machines, but I'm afraid that besides lowering their video settings, there's not much they can do.

(..) they’re poly meshes that can also be customised (so each can wear hats, glasses, and do something new and cool etc.) As well as the worms to manage we also have all of the things that the old games had (persistent objects such as Oil Drums and Landmines) but with the inclusion of Sentry Guns, Electromagnets (..)

I agree with the facts above (that models are now polygonal in nature, there's customization etc)... however, from a reasonable point of view, I would say it's possible to increase the worm limit to 150% (6 worms) and I will try to be more precise.

Let's talk about rendering first. The maps are relatively big, there's all sorts of objects being rendered (terrain --and its objects--, effects, background, worms, hats, oil barrels, mines, crates, sentries, you name it). Most of them are simply the same model (with different parameters such as skeletal pose or so) being repeatedly rendered over and over. As modern video cards support this (geometry instancing), having the same model many times (like worms, mines or crates perhaps) can be an advantage. As for customization items being rendered (like hats), I think we can agree that 24 hats can't affect performance that much, unless the engine isn't smart enough or the models are very high-poly.

From the trailer, I've noticed that you can zoom in and out. Personally, I like to keep the camera zoomed out to see what's happening on the map. We can agree that this can be a major performance eater, however a good LOD (level of detail) system can easily adjust for this. Now suppose some players like to zoom in; the objects, effects and terrain that can't be seen can easily be checked and not rendered, resulting in a huge performance boost, most of the time.

Coming up about the physics, one can notice that only one worm moves at any time (even if that one worm can interact with the world, however that interaction is most of the time relatively small, compared to all the objects moving at once). Now I don't know exactly if the new game uses a ground-written physics engine or a third party one, but from my experience (with third party physics engines), I've noticed that managing a similar scene wouldn't be such a big problem (even with a destructible landscape). More over, since the game is 2.5D, I assume the physics work in a 2D fashion way, meaning the objects can't slip/move/fall behind or in front of the map, that being in some way, an advantage to the physics engine.

Least but not last, a good scene managment/divison system can make a good difference when it comes to the more than usual payload of data.

In conclusion, while sustaining a more elaborate opinion (even if I know that I didn't cover some things like destructible landscape computation, networking and others I can't think of -- all of these for the increased number of worms), I defintely think, some way or another, that it's possible for the limit to be increased.

Of course, it may or may not be a lot of work, depending on the current plans/design, and I'm not forcing anybody, I've simply stated my opinion for this situation. If developers read this, I respect you, however a great deal is possible with today's technology and there's many ways of achieving the impossible.

I apologize if this seems like a rant, but I just can't keep it in me

[BethanyTeam17]

Bit more detailed information on the Scout for you.

Advantages:

• Infiltration: The Scout is great for infiltrating enemy dark-side bases! The Scout’s fast walk speed and small size makes him ideal for quickly reaching the heart of bases and beating a hasty retreat if necessary. The Scout’s small size also allows him to squeeze through the narrowest of tunnels.
• Dark-siding: The Scout is a good class for both dark-siding and anti-dark-siding plays. The Scout’s extra speed allows him to dig further than other worms, meaning he can create more complex tunnel networks as well as reach them.
• Collecting: A fast movement speed, coupled with a longer and higher jump makes the Scout ideal for collecting weapon crates. The Scout can cover more of the landscape in a turn, as well as access those tricky to reach areas.
• Crossing Pitfalls: The Scout’s movement attributes make him an ideal candidate for crossing mine fields, negotiating hazardous objects and sneaking past Sentry Guns.

[Deluvas]

I'm not familiar with the term 'dark-siding'. What does it mean? Also, what do you mean by "reaching the heart of bases" ... like Forts or .. ? Perhaps I'm missing something xD

[BethanyTeam17]

Originally Posted by Deluvas

I'm not familiar with the term 'dark-siding'. What does it mean? Also, what do you mean by "reaching the heart of bases" ... like Forts or .. ? Perhaps I'm missing something xD

Darksiding is when a player gets buried into the landscape, and creates areas in there (which was what was intended by 'bases') to hide and then attack the enemy uses weapons like Air Strike etc

[simum]

So, will the scout do less damage with a bazooka or only melee weapons? It would kind of make sense if his weapons are smaller and the heavy's weapons are bigger or something.

Also, will there be hats? If there will, will we be able to customize our teams so the little worm looks like a spy, the huge one looks like a war machine and the smart one looks like a mad scientist while they're all on the same team?

[Akuryou13]

Now THESE are some good points!

Originally Posted by simum

So, will the scout do less damage with a bazooka or only melee weapons? It would kind of make sense if his weapons are smaller and the heavy's weapons are bigger or something.

it makes sense, but one could also argue that weapons are standard issue, and that any worm allowed into the team would have to be of sufficient size to wield them. I'm curious if it IS going to be different, though. Can we get some official words, Beth, or is this not reveal-able just yet?

Originally Posted by simum

Also, will there be hats? If there will, will we be able to customize our teams so the little worm looks like a spy, the huge one looks like a war machine and the smart one looks like a mad scientist while they're all on the same team?

I'd like this one as well. Give us some customization options between each teammate. I realize the technical limits of the models, the deformity, the physics, etc and all across the internet without lag or framerate loss, but if it's at all possible to give us multiple hats on the same team that would be fantastic!

[BethanyTeam17]

Originally Posted by simum

So, will the scout do less damage with a bazooka or only melee weapons?

Originally Posted by Akuryou13

it makes sense, but one could also argue that weapons are standard issue, and that any worm allowed into the team would have to be of sufficient size to wield them. I'm curious if it IS going to be different, though. Can we get some official words, Beth, or is this not reveal-able just yet?

The Scout will do slightly less damage than the other classes across the full board of weapons. The only damages not affected by class type are gas, fire and water damage.

Originally Posted by simum

Also, will there be hats? If there will, will we be able to customize our teams so the little worm looks like a spy, the huge one looks like a war machine and the smart one looks like a mad scientist while they're all on the same team?

Originally Posted by Akuryou13

I'd like this one as well. Give us some customization options between each teammate. I realize the technical limits of the models, the deformity, the physics, etc and all across the internet without lag or framerate loss, but if it's at all possible to give us multiple hats on the same team that would be fantastic!

Customisation will make a return in Worms Revolution. With some old and some new methods of doing so Though whatever customisations you apply will be reflected across the team, so they'll look the same. I can get where you are coming from, but it makes it easier to tell which team is whose when there's multiple

Hope this helps!

[Thurbo]

It would still be cool to give a Heavy different accesories than a Scout... fitting accessories for each class, y'know

[simum]

Originally Posted by bethamari

The Scout will do slightly less damage than the other classes across the full board of weapons. The only damages not affected by class type are gas, fire and water damage.

Alright, and the heavy does more damage I assume. Are health points affected by the size of the worm? Can't wait to see what the brainy worms does.

Originally Posted by bethamari

Customisation will make a return in Worms Revolution. With some old and some new methods of doing so Though whatever customisations you apply will be reflected across the team, so they'll look the same. I can get where you are coming from, but it makes it easier to tell which team is whose when there's multiple

Hope this helps!

Awww, that's a shame, but I get the reasoning behind it. Anyways, thanks for the answers.

[Akuryou13]

Originally Posted by bethamari

Customisation will make a return in Worms Revolution. With some old and some new methods of doing so Though whatever customisations you apply will be reflected across the team, so they'll look the same. I can get where you are coming from, but it makes it easier to tell which team is whose when there's multiple

This is true. I think in terms of an organized team. It'd be awesome to see a team full of vikings each wearing a slightly different helmet or just viking-themed accessories. If you could reasonably restrict us to just thematic choices like that it would be amazing, but each worm having access to each item/accessory would just make a muddle pile of mess and no one would have any fun with that. Of course, the theme idea is limited as well because there are only so many hats you guys can make with your team and the time restrictions, so we'd probably only get a few themes and every other game you'd see the same combinations of outfits.

I want to have my cake and eat it, I guess.

[Melon]

Here's my guesses for what 7 of the remaining classes will be:

Spy
Sniper
Medic
Pyro
Soldier
Demoman
Engineer

[hoppi]

Originally Posted by bethamari

The Scout will do slightly less damage than the other classes across the full board of weapons. The only damages not affected by class type are gas, fire and water damage.

Sounds nice. I hope "slightly" still means a noticeable difference. And if the scout's weapons do less damage than, say the heavy's, it would be a nice touch if the weapons looked a bit different.

[Thurbo]

Originally Posted by hoppi

Sounds nice. I hope "slightly" still means a noticeable difference.

Well if the shotgun does only 20 points instead of 25 I'd refuse to waste my shotgun on the scout in most instances.

[hoppi]

Originally Posted by Thurbo

Well if the shotgun does only 20 points instead of 25 I'd refuse to waste my shotgun on the scout in most instances.

I meant bigger weapons, like zooka. Scout's strengths should be elsewhere, imho. But 20dmg could actually be good Shotgun is overpowered anyway.

[_Kilburn]

Originally Posted by Melon

Here's my guesses for what 7 of the remaining classes will be:

Spy
Sniper
Medic
Pyro
Soldier
Demoman
Engineer

Brainy worm will be called the Engineer. Calling it.

[Thurbo]

Originally Posted by hoppi

I meant bigger weapons, like zooka. Scout's strengths should be elsewhere, imho. But 20dmg could actually be good Shotgun is overpowered anyway.

Overpowered? What? You do realize you are supposed to be able to kill a Worm within two turns with it (hence it's usually limited, unlike Bazookas and Grenades)? Being unable to kill a worm within two turns when playing the Scout sounds like a noticable disadvantage to me.

[hoppi]

Originally Posted by Thurbo

Overpowered? What? You do realize you are supposed to be able to kill a Worm within two turns with it (hence it's usually limited, unlike Bazookas and Grenades)? Being unable to kill a worm within two turns when playing the Scout sounds like a noticable disadvantage to me.

I was only mostly joking about nerfing the scout's shotgun, because you brought it up. I don't know if it would be good change really.

I assume you're talking about Reloaded? I have good amount of playing experience only in WA, in which shotgun is infinite in most modes. It's quite OP if you ask me, but still a fun weapon. It has two shots, which in itself obviously makes it very powerful especially if you know how to use it. And it has maximum damage of 50, which is practically more than e.g. bazooka, grenade and mine. Of course it's a different case if it's limited. But let's not dwelve into this off-topic.

[jsgnext]

Originally Posted by Melon

Here's my guesses for what 7 of the remaining classes will be:

Spy
Sniper
Medic
Pyro
Soldier
Demoman
Engineer

I see what you did there...
However, a Worm with spy capabilities would be more than awesome, no joke...

[jsgnext]

Originally Posted by Worms_PRO

I won't be buying this game if they don't include:
[...]
Tons of gltches (Worms 2 Armageddon XBLA)

God, you must be a masochist....
I would really want to be able to place my worms manually tho, but this thread is for talking about classes...

[Extremist2]

Originally Posted by 'HHC

I'm still somewhat confused whether all 4 worms will have access to the same weapon panel or whether they are limited to their 'range'?

In other words, does the scout have weak attack power because he has 'noob'-weapons or because when he uses a weapon the damage isn't as substantial?

Yes, just what I was thinking.

BTW, why the decision to limit the worm count to four, no matter what the mode? You do know that the most highly regarded game in the series has eight per team?

EDIT: Read the second page. Technical limitations with a 2-and-a-half-D turn-based game? I'm having a hard time swallowing that.

Well, there'd better be one HELL of an arsenal to play with... -_-

[jsgnext]

Right now what bothers me most is the fact that games will be limmited to 4 players more than team having a limit of 4 worms...
Yeah, im getting used to it since the last game with more than 4 players (with full teams) per match was wwp...but, I still miss having 6 player games anyway....

_____________________
Ontopic: it would be awesome if the aiming and/or power of certain weapons is affected by classes....
Ex: Bazooka is too heavy for Scout, so he cant aim it too high
Ex2: Scout cant throw a grenade at full power because he is not strong enough

Also, it would be EPIC if weak classes recieve recoil from heavy weapons.
Ex: When Scout uses a Bazooka he is knocked back and/or receives damage due to recoil (Aim zooka down and jump for rocket jump (?))

[Splapp]

Really like the look of the Heavy worm... so can we assume the minigun will be returning?

[Akuryou13]

Originally Posted by Splapp

Really like the look of the Heavy worm... so can we assume the minigun will be returning?

if it's not, I think we all have to boycott just on principle

[_Kilburn]

Originally Posted by Akuryou13

if it's not, I think we all have to boycott just on principle

Also, given the name of the classes so far, I think that asks for a cross promo with TF2.

Oh and I quite don't understand the 4 worms limit. Worms Ultimate Mayhem is probably way more graphics intensive than Worms Reloaded or Worms Revolution, and yet you can still have teams with 6 worms.

Actually, why don't you just do the same thing as Worms Armageddon before its beta updates? Since the maximum worm count is 16 (if I remember correctly, 4 teams with 4 worms), let players have 8 worms per team if there are 2 teams, 5 worms per team if there are 3 teams, and 4 worms per team if there are 4. I personally find 1 vs 1 matches to be terribly repetitive and short with such a small amount of worms, especially since most of them can be pushed into the water during the first turns. At least on Intermerdiate, that is.